Jacksonville, Oregon is about a ten minute drive from my birthplace. If this story does not signify the dawn of true fascism in our country, I don't know what does. Bush supporters can continue to tell themselves that the only people who are arrested or mistreated by the police in a political context are the ones who violate the law. But they would be mistaken, just as they were mistaken or unaware of the truth about what occurred during the RNC here in NY.
JACKSONVILLE, Ore. - Crawford, Texas is no stranger to protests and public gatherings, having provided a backdrop for such events for nearly four years now. Local and area law enforcement agencies have gained experience in protecting the Western White House and its famous inhabitants, and have devised a methodology for arranging for peaceful protests out of the sight and hearing of the president. But things got out of hand last week in Jacksonville, Ore., leaving some local residents there expressing fear of freely voicing their opinions. Some residents of Jacksonville feel that their First Amendment rights were taken away as they witnessed an encounter that resulted in pepper balls fired into crowds of men, women, and children as an abrupt "sweep" of a sidewalk erupted into chaos as the presidential motorcade drove by last Thursday. According to a news story in the Medford Mail Tribune, one man said he was shot in the back seven times with pepper balls (plastic paint balls filled with capsaicin). He said he saw a man get hit with a baton and fall to the ground. "With my back to the police - as I was picking him up - that's when I was shot." Trish Bowcock, a resident of Jacksonville and a retired attorney who is formerly of Austin, Texas, was an eyewitness to the disturbance and penned her impressions of the scene from a personal standpoint. She has agreed to allow The Iconoclast to reprint her thoughts. Mail Tribune staff members confirmed her contention that law enforcement concentrated on anti-Bush protestors, rather than pro-Bush demonstrators, and that the order to stop the protests came from the U.S. Secret Service. Mail Tribune coverage of the protest is available at http://www.mailtribune.com/.Posted by Maria at October 19, 2004 01:00 PMSilenced by the President
By Trish Bowcock
A few weeks before my father died, he woke me in the wee hours of the morning. He needed to talk. He was worried about Attorney General John Ashcroft and the destruction of American civil liberties. I comforted my father, believing he was delusional from medications. I was wrong.
I write this from my home in Jacksonville Oregon (population 2,226). President George W. Bush came here this week. The purpose of his visit was political. Southern Oregon has been deemed a "battle ground" area in the presidential race. John Kerry has made incredible inroads in this traditionally Republican stronghold. President Bush's campaign stop was an attempt to staunch the slide.Jacksonville is an old gold mining town. Our main street is only five blocks long, lined with restored storefronts. The sidewalks are narrow. We are a peaceful community. The prospect of an overnight presidential visit was exciting, even to me, a lifelong Democrat. My excitement turned to horror as I watched events unfold during President Bush's visit.
In the mid 1800s, when Indians invaded Jacksonville, citizens clambered upon the roof of the old library. It was the one building that would not catch fire when flaming arrows were shot. This week it was a different scene. Police armed with high powered rifles perched upon our rooftops as the presidential motorcade approached. Helicopters flew low, overhead. A cadre of motorcycle police zoomed into town. Black SUVs followed, sandwiching several black limousines carrying the president, his wife and their entourage as they sped to the local inn where they would eat and sleep.
The main street was lined with people gathered to witness the event. Many supported the president. Many did not. Some came because they were simply curious. There were men, women, young and old. The mood was somewhat festive. Supporters of John Kerry sported signs, as did supporters of George Bush. Individuals, exercising their rights of free speech began chanting. On one side of the street, shouts of "four more years" echoed in the night air. On the other side of the street, chants of "three more weeks" responded. The chants were loud and apparently could be heard by President Bush. An order was issued that the anti-Bush rhetoric be quieted. The local SWAT team leapt to action.
It happened fast. Clad in full riot gear, at least 50 officers moved in. Shouting indecipherable commands from a bullhorn, they formed a chain and bore down upon the people, only working to clear the side of the street appearing to be occupied by Kerry supporters. People tried to get out of their way. It was very crowded. There was nowhere to move. People were being crushed. They started flowing into the streets. Pleas to the officers, asking, "where to go" fell upon deaf ears. Instead, riot police fired pellets of cayenne pepper spray into the crowd. An old man fell and couldn't get up. When a young man stopped to help, he was shot in the back with hard pepper spray balls. Children were hit with pepper spray. Deemed "Protesters" people were shoved and herded down the street by the menacing line of armed riot police, until out of the President's ear-shot.
There the "Protesters" were held at bay. Anyone vocalizing anti-Bush or pro-Kerry sentiments were prohibited from venturing forward. Loud anti-Bush chants were responded to by the commanding officer stating: "FORWARD," to which the entire line of armed police would move, lock-step, toward the "Protesters," forcing backward movement. Police officers circulated filming the crowd of "Protesters." Some were people like me, quiet middle-aged women. Some sported anti-Bush signs, peace signs, or Kerry signs. A small group of youth, clad in black with kerchiefs wrapping their heads chanted slogans. A young woman in her underwear, sporting a peace sign sang a lyrical Kumbaya. Mixed among the "Protesters" were supporters of the President. One 19 year- old man shouted obscenities at anyone expressing dissatisfaction with the president, encouraging the police to "tazar" the "Stinking Protesters." Neither the "Protestors," nor the police harassed this vocal young man. Across the street, individuals shouting support for the president were allowed to continue. Officers monitored this group but allowed them to shout words of support or hurl derisions toward Kerry supporters, undisturbed. Honking cars filled with Bush supporters were left alone. A honking car full of Kerry supporters was stopped by police on its way out of town.
The standoff with "Protesters" continued until the President finished his dinner and was secured in his hotel cottage for the night. Only then were the riot police ordered to "mount-up," leaping upon the sideboard of a huge SUV, pulling out of town, and allowing "free speech" to resume.
In small town America I witnessed true repression and intimidation by law enforcement. I saw small children suffering from the effects of being fired upon by pepper bullets. I felt legitimate fear of expressing my political opinions: a brand new feeling. Newspaper accounts state the chaos started when a violent "Protester" shoved a police officer. No one I talked to witnessed this account.
It is reputed that President Bush and his staff will not allow any opposition activity to occur within his ear or eye sight. I can confirm, that in tiny Jacksonville, Oregon, this was true. Physically violent means were taken to protect the president from verbal insults. Freedom of speech was stolen.My father was not paranoid as he lay dying. He was expressing great insight into the dangers of our current presidential administration and its willingness to repress personal freedoms. If I could talk to my father today, I would say, "I am sorry Daddy for doubting you." And, no matter what, I will continue to exercise my individual right to freely express my opinions. Americans cannot take four more years.
© Copyright 2004 The Lone Star Iconoclast.
Good gravy marie (nothing personal, an old Maine exclamation). First t-shirts and now this--a riot just because Bush could hear criticism from his armed convoy as it sped by. Thanks for digging this out.
I'm expecting major right-wing disruptions on election day, but then, I'm a pessimist.
Posted by: Mick at October 19, 2004 02:54 PMwow, that is so disturbing. I wish I would have been there. What a dumb motherfucker mr W is!!!I hate him and i dont think i can hate him anymore than i do right now!
Posted by: jenni at October 19, 2004 05:30 PMincredible isn't it? got to rip this, Maria, thanx for the heads up.
Posted by: cul at October 20, 2004 05:25 AMI would LOVE to hear Mikey's take on this.
Posted by: nunya at October 20, 2004 08:40 AMI would LOVE to hear Mikey's take on this.
Take it up with the Chief of Police in that town.
And why do you care what I think? Hard up for attention?
Posted by: Mad Mikey at October 20, 2004 01:17 PMNo, because I would love to see how you could spin this one. This is about as raw as you can get with blatent violation of first ammendment rights. It cannot be sliced any other way.
And it wasn't the chief of police who made the decision - Bush was the one who wanted the protesting AGAINST him to stop.
Go ahead - spin it.
Remember this next time you hear about peaceful demonstrators suddenly running riot, attacking anyone, or resisting the police. It's usually the cops who were "out of control." Except of course, they were probably following orders, or their own political inclinations.
You never hear about this happening to right-wing protestors, even Nazis or the Klan. The Mafia gets more respect than peaceful protestors. Chicago '68 was a full-blown police riot, in the streets and in the halls of the Democratic Convention. It was purely political. History has been re-written on that one, and on much of the overwhelmingly peaceable protest movements of the 1960's.
The re-write goes on every day. After all, the police would never LIE, would they? And no truly peaceful person would ever protest anything, would they? Those who make trouble for the government are by definition trouble-makers. So it's only fair that the government should make trouble for them, right?
If this means responding to speech with physical violence, so be it. If this means responding to political opposition with illegal acts and abuse of power, so be it. This is the textbook definition of totalitarianism, folks. Call it Fascism, call it Communism; call it defending Freedom and Democracy, if you're really cynical, like Bush. It can happen here. It is happening here. Vote to stop it: Stop Bush while you still can...
Posted by: cosa nostradamus at October 20, 2004 02:54 PMGo ahead - spin it.
Got nothing to spin - blame the Chief of Police. He/She is the one responsible for the actions of the police department. If anything, they were responding to a request by Secret Service - how the PD handles the specifics of that request is up to them.
You're getting all huffy-puffy about a lot of nothing nunya. Have you taken your meds today?
Posted by: Mad Mikey at October 20, 2004 03:00 PMif the ss is requesting the police to quell the anti-bush protesters, you think they wouldn't do it. as if they have a choice?
What if the tables had been turned? You would be singing an entirely different tune - there goes the double standards yet again.
Posted by: nunya at October 20, 2004 03:02 PMMad Mikey, I don't know if you caught it, but you just blatantly contradicted yourself.
"blame the Chief of Police. He/She is the one responsible for the actions of the police department. If anything, they were responding to a request by Secret Service - how the PD handles the specifics of that request is up to them."
If it is a request by the secret service to silence and repress Kerry supporters and Bush dissent, and then the police follow through on that order, it is still the secret service who has initiated the repression.
I blame the administration, for making it clear that dissent must be silenced at all costs.
Posted by: Maria at October 20, 2004 03:03 PMit is so crystal clear at how razor sharp the blade of double standards is here, it could split an ant hair. Remember the "measures" taken to quell the protesters at both RNC and DNC? The cordoned off many city blocks for the RNC in New York and shut down parts of the subway and deemed it "inconvienet" but the reality was to keep protesters far away from the action. In Boston, the DNC puts up barriers for the protesters but kept them close to the action at the DNC and that was a violation of first ammendment rights to them.
Make up your damn double standard minds already. Stop flip flopping!
If it is a request by the secret service to silence and repress Kerry supporters and Bush dissent, and then the police follow through on that order, it is still the secret service who has initiated the repression.
Which is it: a request or an order?
To the best of my knowledge (and I've got close relatives that work for the Secret Service), the police are under no authority to comply with SS requests; they could have told them to pound sand or they could have deployed riot police with dogs, fire hoses, and tear gas.
Come on Maria - I expect 'paranoia' from nunya, but you're a lot smarter than that....
Posted by: Mad Mikey at October 20, 2004 04:05 PM"Which is it: a request or an order?"
Ah, the classic tactic of focusing on an insignificant detail to avoid having to answer the real issue. Go on Mikey.
Posted by: Maria at October 20, 2004 04:09 PM"they could have told them to pound sand or they could have deployed riot police with dogs, fire hoses, and tear gas"
Yeah. When was the last time you heard of a local police department defying the orders of the President of the United States. Stop acting so naive Mikey. It makes you look silly.
Call it paranoia, but what happened is crystal clear. I'd rather be paranoid than dreadfully naive.
Posted by: Maria at October 20, 2004 04:11 PMWhat 'real issue'?
NEOdork begged for my spin - I responded that there wasn't anything to spin. Talk to the police about the actions of their officers.
Or is there no such thing as accountability?
Posted by: Mad Mikey at October 20, 2004 04:20 PM"Or is there no such thing as accountability?"
That's a fucking hoot coming from a Bush supporter.
Posted by: Maria at October 20, 2004 04:21 PMGuffaws aside - is there?
Posted by: Mad Mikey at October 20, 2004 04:33 PMApparently not, since you don't believe that the Secret Service should be held accountable for the orders that they issued on behalf of the president.
Apparently not, since this administration doesn't take responsibility or recognize their accountability for anything.
Posted by: Maria at October 20, 2004 04:35 PMYeah maria - repubs don't spin anything. They don't lie. Everything Bush says is truth and from his heart.
They can't be held accountable because they don't make mistakes or do anything wrong. Tehy are rigtheous, conservative christian folk who tell it like it is and hide nothing. I cannot see why anyone would NOT vote for them will all of those traits, can't you? I mean, come on, you cannot see why Bush opposed a 9-11 commission? Why waste tax payer money on such a thing when nothing went wrong. Everything was handled just fine. BushCo did everything they were supposed to.
The iraq war - it was justified. They went in there looking for WMD's, which obviosuly are hidden better than we thought, but we did get Saddam out of power. That counts. It is about freeing the Iraqi people, not about oil. Oh, God told Bush to do it so it must be right. God has told him to spread freedom. So it must be right. So if God is leading him in his decisions, God must have told him to have people fend for themselves, there is no need for social programs. I guess the churches should close their sou kitchens then too, because if God is telling Bush to do this, he is probably telling all of the preists and pastors to do the same. Don't you get it? Bush is right! He admitted they miscalculated. But he would do the same thing the same way all over again. What is wrong with you?
Mikey and Goeff/Gordon all all correct. Hell, there shouldn't even be a left wing party. We should all be good Christian republicans. We should kick out anyone who opposes us because it is the American Way of Life.
Those cops acted all on their own. Nobody really ordered them to do anything - they were "requested" to do it. Nobody held a gun to their head. So they acted on their own. Just like the soldiers at Abu Gharib did. It was in no way the fault of the superiors. Because they didn't force them to do it. So the SS merely made a request on behalf of the President and the officers decided all on their own to quell the anti-bush people.
Nah, nobody forced them with a gun to their head. But I am sure hadn't the chief and his officers done anything, there would be some unemplyoed cops walking around. As it should be. The President should NEVER be questioned, especially one that is right and righteous and honest. Of course, he doesn't fire anyone, they just leave all on their own.
The important thing to remember about Bush, and all so-called conservatives these days, is they are never responsible for anything. They have become, in fact, an anti-social cult of irresponsibility. They mouth all the usual platitudes, but they don't believe in stepping up and taking on the burdens of democracy: Defending the Constitution, fighting for your country, paying your taxes, etc. In fact, they stand foursquare against all that, against everything America is supposed to stand for. All they care about is money, power, and personal gain: And they don't care how they get it, or what it does to their country. Their only defense is: "Well HE did it TOO!" As long as they can shift the blame, they go on screwing up. Really, the entire world has had enough of their bullshit. It's time for all REAL Americans to take responsibility, and boot their degenerate, wife-abusing, mentally-lazy, shiftless, corporate-welfare-sucking neo-conservative asses out.
Posted by: cosa nostradamus at October 20, 2004 05:55 PMwoohoo!
you guys rock!
Posted by: fanboy at October 20, 2004 06:07 PMYeah baby.
Posted by: Maria at October 20, 2004 08:28 PMOne thing I found very disturbing was how after the snakes (bushco and about the entire GOP) tried every wormy way out of the fact that they screwed up with iraq and the wmd's they pulled the "well, all of this was a problem when clinton was in office." They are masters at taking credit for good times and placing blame for bad times. Why they can't try to deal with the here and now is a question nobody can answer. Not even the die hards in the blogsphere.
Posted by: nunya at October 20, 2004 08:40 PMThat's true Nunya. It cracks me up when Bush and his mouthpieces go on about having "inherited a recession" from the Clinton years. HAHAHAAA! They inherited the biggest budget surplus in history and Bush blew through it faster than an 8 ball in college.
Posted by: Maria at October 20, 2004 09:59 PMCan NeoCunt go a whole thread without mentioning me? Thank God I live next to a playground. Coming here would be in violation of his parole.
You mean tolerance like this:
Yeah. He was just minding his own business. I can't imagine why they wouldn't let barking moonbats near the President.
Posted by: Geoffrey at October 21, 2004 12:12 AMhttp://www.dailyrecycler.com/blog/2004/08/buck-stops-with-kerrys-little-people.html
Posted by: Geoffrey at October 21, 2004 12:13 AMThanks for the crappy link. I have no idea what that was supposed to prove.
Posted by: Maria at October 21, 2004 12:35 AMI will tell you what it proves - there was one guy who was showing his support than an asshole Bush supporter right up on top of him antagonizing him. He got what he deserved. You could see the Bush supporter was clearly not just there to support Bush, but to cause problems. I would have done the same thing.
But, like Maria says, it proves nothing to the point of this thread. Nobody told that dude to hit the other asshole. Bush told his SS to order the police to quell the opposition.
Bush has proven he does not like to be opposed or criticized - that was apparent in the debates.
Well, I guess there is no discussing this if the topic keeps changing....
Posted by: Mad Mikey at October 21, 2004 01:10 PMthe overall topic is doube standards. look at how Mikey is backing out of the discussion when he knows he is dead wrong. Can ANY of you ever admitt when your beat?
Posted by: nunya at October 21, 2004 01:51 PMDork, you wanted my analysis on this post, the subject being why police acted the way they did.
I gave it.
You and Maria scoffed at it, then changed the subject.
If the police had REFUSED to act, then you'd be singing a different tune. Dispite what you think, not all evils in the world are a result of Bush.
The subject of accountability is/was directed at the head of the police department, not a generalization of all nasty things you perceive in the world.
In closing: blow it out your ass troll.
Posted by: Mad Mikey at October 21, 2004 02:41 PMTechnicalities, asswipe. You are basing this on technicalities so your never-do-wrong BushCo has no accountability. Yet, you are the loudest to protest when technicalities get people out of trouble with the law. DOUBLE STANDARDS AS USUAL.
Reality - if the President of the USA requests you dom something, chances are, you won't really think about it, rather, you would hop to it. Also, with THIS president, look at the record he has with folks that DON'T do what he asks or disagrees with him.
Think abou it - what hell would have been paid by that department had they refused to quell the voices of dissent? Technically, Bush could do nothing about it. But think of the pressures the higher ups who are infleunced by other higher ups who are influenced by one arm of BuschCo or another. That police chief could have said "We don't HAVE to quell those voices" and the reponse to that from the Governer or any other controling entity could have been "We don't HAVE to pay the salaries of your officers" or "We don't HAVE to issue new equipment to your department."
Like it oer not, asshole, this government, our corporations, and just about everything else does not operate on black and white principals, much as you would like to think that it does, and much as we would all like that it did. Business does not get done on any premis where "fairness" exists. The saying "If you scracth my back, I'll scratch yours" was not born out of a fairy tale. It has held true for a long time and more than ever now, holds true.
The biggest problem with you is the fact that you aren't willing to admit to it. You think your party and the administartion is flawless and without blame for anything. I supported Clinton, but not on every platform. His administartion made msitakes. As did every administration. But I can be man enough to admit to it. I have the intelligence to know the differences. You, Mikey, are either too stupid or too blind to see it or you are too full of testosterone or yourself to admit it.
NeoCunt cries because he's part of the lower class. Us corporate big wigs keep him down. He's a victim of the man.
Posted by: Geoffrey at October 21, 2004 03:03 PMGeoff can't stick to topic because he knows he is beaten.
Posted by: nunya at October 21, 2004 03:18 PMThe biggest problem with you is the fact that you aren't willing to admit to it. You think your party and the administartion is flawless and without blame for anything.
Hardly flawless - I just don't think that civilization is coming to an end because of one man. I don't blame all the woes of the world on one ideology alone - there's plenty of blame to go around.
As for your 'colorful comments', I'll let Maria deal with you about it - it's her blog.
Posted by: Mad Mikey at October 21, 2004 04:00 PMunlike you and your buddies here, maria is smart enough to look back and see who started with the "colorful comments" Yes, Mikey, I can easily see you working for a company like eonron - do wrong, sio others can do wrong, and then you step back and try to act like you are on the good side. That trait alone makes you a flaming asshole.
"blow it out your ass troll"
Posted by: nunya at October 21, 2004 04:40 PM"Hardly flawless - I just don't think that civilization is coming to an end because of one man. I don't blame all the woes of the world on one ideology alone - there's plenty of blame to go around."
Civilization may not be coming to an end, but democracy is most definitely waning and in this case, it can be blamed squarely on one administration. I'm sure it would be nice for Bush supporters like you to "spread it around." Is there no such thing as accountability Mikey? Well, is there?
do you honestly expect a straight answer out of him? he hasn't flat out answered a question in the time I have seen him online.
I not only think it is tacless for mikey to say what he did about "civilization coming to an end" but it is downright un-american.
I mean, is that what it takes? Will it take the downfall of civilization for un-american facists like you to admit to a mistake? is that what kind of person you are Mikey - the kind who waits until something so bad goes wrong so they can admit their wrong doing and make a change? I hope to shit that nobdy hires you as an engineer with an attitude like that - who knows with an attitude like that, you are management material.
What ever happened to making changes before it is too late. What ever happended to damage control? What ever happened to admitting to mistakes and trying to rectify them? Hell, even your all time hero - Reagan had the balls to do it. Why can't W? Why can't you?
You make me sick, Mikey. You are blemish to this country.
I'm glad I make you sick. It shows that you fear me.
Maria: yes, there is; I just don't lay everything at the feet of one man or his administration...
Posted by: Mad Mikey at October 21, 2004 09:27 PMHardly mikey. I pity you. I pity your wife. I pity the people whp gave birth to such an agressive non-compassionate asshole.
Posted by: nunya at October 21, 2004 09:35 PMGeoff can't stick to topic because he knows he is beaten.
Beaten? Every time you whine about me in a post that I've not commented in nor is about me, I've won.
Your self-loathing amuses me. You're such a failure in life you create the big bad conspiracy theory so you won't have to accept responsibility for it.
It can't be your fault you're scum. It must be the systems.
Posted by: Geoffrey at October 21, 2004 09:41 PMFact is Geoff, you are so damn blind and have such a narrow one-track mind, you just cannot see it. You are of no use to me. What you represent is what I hate. It is what I fight. Take away that, and you are just a man-child, whose mental capacity never quite developed past high school. I don't hate that about you, I barely feel sorry feel sorry for you. Again, the thing I hate about you isn't about you at all really.
Then you go on to say every time I whine about you? Seems like you and your ass monkey butt buddy seem to bring me up plenty more on your shithole then I do in posting. Your forgeries of me further proves that point.
Lastly, I fail to see how I am a failure in life. I have a decent family. I am responsible. I care about other people. That enough makes me a success. You on the other hand are a bastard. Hopping around from woman to woman. Are self-indulgent and are just plain selfish. You measure success on money and material things, but when you are old, wrinkled and lonely, where will you be? I know I will be looking back on life knowing I did my best and watching my family continue a small legacy of being good and decent caring people.
The best thing about you Geoff is you won't contaminate the world with offspring. Thankfully.
For someone who thinks so little of either I or Geoff, you sure do have a LOT to say about it.
Posted by: Mad Mikey at October 21, 2004 11:26 PMWhat's his thing with high schools? He still bitter he's not allowed within 100 meters of them?
Posted by: Geoffrey at October 22, 2004 12:40 AMNow I want everyone who is reading this thread to notice something. It is the same tired tactice that geoff/gordon and mikey use all of the time when they know they are beaten - they not only change the opic of conversation, but do it in a mindless childish way.
Rather than admit that Bush and his SS were wrong in requesting the Bush protesters were silenced, they will try to divert attention away from it. Kinda of like Bush diverted attention away from a major fuck up with Iraq to making an issue out of Gay marriage.
Only because you're a child with no mind.
Posted by: Mad Mikey at October 22, 2004 11:17 AMA lying child with no mind. That in itself proves your stupidity. You still show your face after being caught in outrageous lies.
You're what's wrong with America.
No wonder you're full of self hatred.
Posted by: Geoffrey at October 22, 2004 12:06 PMI love it! One insult of being "childish" coming from a late thirtysomething who still plays college fraternity pranks and another who still pulls his gung ho pud over the military.
Posted by: nunya at October 22, 2004 12:36 PMMaria,
Take a look at this link http://www.factcheck.org/article286.html
now with that being said, how the hell can you trust someone who spins and mixes up facts that badly, to be a good leader?
Posted by: nunya at October 22, 2004 01:02 PMSpeaking of lies, liar, how about this one?
http://factcheck.org/article282.html
Posted by: Geoffrey at October 22, 2004 03:36 PMDon't confuse the man with FACTS Geoff - he has enough on his plate what with 'nuances'....
Posted by: Mad Mikey at October 22, 2004 04:30 PMDon't knock those "nuances". He gets them from the secret source he isn't at liberty to name. Probably the same secret source that knows me personally and verified to him that Gordon and I are the same person.
Posted by: Geoffrey at October 22, 2004 06:42 PMpoor little frat butt pirates and a over the hill gung ho seamen munching navy puke. none of them can stick o topic. they know they are beat
Posted by: nunya at October 22, 2004 08:20 PM