By Beauty Damned

It is unfortunate that a good number of Americans have become so full of agression that they admire someone who "goes for the jugular" instead of excercising composure and patience. That is what makes Bush/Cheney so popular. People for someone reason really value this "lets make a decsion now despite its outcome, just for the sake of making a decision..." The irony is, I agree with that philosophy, but I only agree that it applies to certain theaters such as when it comes to some business decsions. I DO NOT think it applies to running a country. It certainly should not be excercised when it comes to war.
Cheney's remark goes below what is even down right dirty campaigning. It was un-american and borderline criminal. How can he know withj ANY degree of certainty that we will be attacked if Kerry is elected. I want proof. The problem is, this Administration can never seem to produce any proof. They make decisions and statements based on insinuations and sloppy speculation. They call that "miscalculation." I call it pitiful and a danger to the stability of this country and the entire world.
One aspect I think about is how this man admitted "miscalculation" on his part, is also the man who makes the final decision to launch nuclear missles. That scares the hell out of me more than ANY terrorist could ever do. When I hear about how national defense is top priority and how Buish is the best CIC, I begin to think abnout the ultimate decision to obliterate the world with the press of a few buttons. Someone has to make that decision. That decision has to be based on very accurate and damning facts. That decision has to be very carefully weighed. Based on that, I do not want to have someone who made a "miscalulation" about war having the power to make the ulitmate decision. I don't want him or any of the people entrusted under him.
Is Kerry perfect? Absolutley not. He is a politrician. All, and I repeat ALL politicans lie, make and break promises, and arent worth a fuck. Perosnally, I think Kerry is an aloof, pompus, arrogant, greedy prick. Same can be said for just about every senator, congressman and high publiuc servant in this country. Most of our esteemed citizens - the doctors, lawyers, ceo's, ect. are all that way. It is how they got to where they are. I have worked with many them and not one of them was what I would consider just cool people to hang around. But, when it comes to politics, I don't expect it. Kerry has what it takes to be a solid and stable leader. He is intelligent, and will use good judegment when making decisions. As a CIC, I trust his judgment on selecting good advisors and not giving into special interests when it comes to making big decisions like going to war. Most of all, when I go to the polls on Nov. 2nd, whose finger do I want on that button - Bush or Kerry? To me, that choice is a no-brainer.

Oh, those 'latest records'??

They are most likely FAKE.

Check out Drudge Report and/or my blog - the font is too modern.....

Let me know when you have some proof that they're fake.

Charles at LGF created the exact document using MS Word.

It's not 'proof' yet, but it's just a matter of time. You might not have ever used a typewriter, but I remember banging out some term papers in high school using my Grandmother's IBM Selectric and those 'memos' don't look like any font I've seen on a typewriter from the 70s.

Mm-hmmm. Still waiting.

Compared to the evidence available regarding the Katherine Harris brouhaha we have been discussing, what you have presented here is about as flimsy as a feather. What on earth makes you think that I would rely on this kind of weak speculation?

I admit is isn't proof as yet, but IMO it can be nothing but a fake.

I just tried the experiment using Word - exact same spacing as the 'original' documents at the CBS website.

Here's another log for the fire.....

until there is proof that it is a fake, than it is real.
til then, button up about it, Mikey.

until there is proof that it is a fake, than it is real.
til then, button up about it, Mikey.

When the smear is on Bush it is to be accepted, not questioned. Right?

Did you give the Swift Vets the same latitude about their proof?

Talk about hypocrites...

Bravo Rosemary!

ANOTHER piece to this puzzle....doesn't look good for CBS News.

Doh!! This is almost too much to bear:
Son of Late Officer Questions Bush Memos

Mikey--

You're jumping to a lot of conclusions. This all smells like Rove using you faithful Koo-Aid swallowers to do his dirty-work.

I grew up using typewriters--didn't get my first compuiter until '95--and I've been writing since I was 6. I'm also a bit like the guy in You've Got Mail--I'm a fan if not a collector and I know a bit about them. I haven't seen the documents but a few actually relevant questions.

1. The font's too 'modern'? I am not aware of a font created more recently than 1956 (maybe Space Toaster, tho I wouldn't bet on it). Most of them have been around for a century. Sans serif fonts came into vogue in the 30's. Everything on your computer existed prior to the computer but most of them were printer-only fonts (Twentieth Century, Broadway, Playbill, Chiller, that sort of pictorial font).

2. Which font did your Grandma's Selectric have, Mikey?

Ah. You weren't aware you could change them, were you?

The Selectric came with a box of typing balls. Six of them. You could change them out in a matter of seconds--unclip one, clip in the other. Just because those documents don't look 'old' to you, doesn't mean they're fake. That's sheer ignorance. The one you think looks old is called Times New Roman, and that was the one many typewriters used some version of, but Elite was also available--what we would call Helvetica--as well as others. I had a Selectric in high school that my father gave me when his company threw them out (because they were out-dated), and the ball it came with was Arial, which I thought was too damn cool because I'd never seen anything except TNR. I graduated in '66.

You should consider some learning before you allow yourself opinions, Mikey. Ignorance makes you an easy target for manipulators like Rove. You'll believe anything because you don't know any better.

Mick:

Grandma's Selectric used Courier I believe.

Yes, I'm aware of the ease in which the 'golf ball' could be switched out.

Take a look at the *cough* 'memos' - could you explain why the 'th' in the header of the memo is normal size yet the 'th' in the body of the message is superscripted?

I'm no genius about typewriters like you, but that superscripted 'th' was practially IMPOSSIBLE until the word processor became commonplace in the typical Air Force office.

I'm not drinking any Kool Aid - I'm using a few neurons in my thinking....

And another aspect to consider: if these aren't fake - aren't even close to being fake, why is CBS News issuing statements that appear to 'cover their ass'??

I would have thought that CBS would stand up to a little scrutiny...

And yet another aspect to consider:

Widow says Killian didn't know how to type.

oh come on "didn't know how to type"

give me a break - ANYONE can type, it isn't a difficult thing. And let's say he didn't type - uh, last time I checked, CO's usualy have an enlisted person doing their administrative work for them.
And last time I checked, the military has always been very fickle about details - so it would not agt all surprise me to see a mosquito winged airmen pay so close attention to detail as to chenge a ball out of a typewriter in order to make sure the "th" was superscripted. It also would not surprise me to find that there were certian procedures to folloow such as using a certain font or set of fonts when typing up different types of memos.
And the guys son - come on, how does he really know how his fatehr really wrote memos. I find it very hard to beleive that this person know his father that initmatly as to tell how he did his actualy work. Honestly, how many of us actually know THAT much about our parents. My father recently reitred after being a teacher in philly for 35 years. Did I know how he taught? Yes, he was funny when teaching, but didn't put up with BS from kids, he expected them to do their work. Since he was a special ed teacher he had to write IEP's. DId I know he didn't like to write those plans? Yes. Did I ever read any of his IEP's. A couple of times. Does gthat mean I know his style that well? Absolutle not. Did I care? Nope.
So I really don't see how this guy claims he knew his fathers work that well and it still is not proof that these documents are fake. If they are fake, I will apologize. It still does not negate the sinmple fact that Kerry served in Nam and Bush didn't.
I fail to see how the repubs can even compare the two. But, somehow, the repugs in all their glory, can manage to compare chuck round to porterhouse. They truly are masters of deception.

Lots of words to simple say until there is proof that it is a fake, than it is real.

It just keeps growing and growing and growing....

so where is the proof? you guys are always hounding about proof, where is yours? Right now, everything is speculation. Proof mikey, proof.

And the guys son - come on, how does he really know how his fatehr really wrote memos. I find it very hard to beleive that this person know his father that initmatly as to tell how he did his actualy work. Honestly, how many of us actually know THAT much about our parents.

Well, his son was in TANG with his Dad. Worked with him. Served with him in the traditional sense not the Kerry Swiftboat way...

Everyone is waiting for CBS News to finish their internal investigation so you'll have to be patient.

Nunya,

Yes, anyone can type. But if you don't know how to do it your typing wouldn't be perfectly lined up and error free, would it?

Keep grasping!

I'm totally entertained by it.

Mikey--

Good for you. At least you did some initial homework. I'm not used to that from dingers.

So what do you do with the fact that one of the documents from the same time that the WH released months ago had the same superscripted 'th'?

nunya--

The superscripted 'th' needed its own key, it wasn't just a metter of changing the ball out. I suspect that when the dust settles we'll find that the military had a specific and regular use for the 'th' superscription and that they ordered their typewriters that way, almost certainly--at that period--from IBM. The fact that it has been found on other documents, documents that don't have anything to do with this controversy, suggests that was the case. It would likely have to have been their most sophisticated model, which also came with 'floating justification' (I think that's what they called it; it may have been 'flexible justification') as well.

This whole rigamarole is nothing but a Rovian dust storm kicked up to deflect attention from the real issue that Bush lied about almost everything to do with his NG service and is still lying about it--not that that's anything new for Junior; this business of ignoring a direct order isn't new--the Boston Globe dug it up back in 2000. I doubt these documents are fake but even if they are, that doesn't change the material facts: he ducked out of his obligation and then lied about it. These documents aren't primary evidence, they're supportive of what we already have--it's called 'corroboration'. Nice to have but we've already got the original orders.

Tells you how the wind's changed, tho. In 2000 nobody gave a damn. The press wouldn't report it--it wasn't 'relevant'. Only a few papers picked up the Globe story and most of them only provided undetailed summaries. Now it's a big deal. If it had been treated like that back then, we might have avoided the mess of the last 4 years.

Mikey--

Yeah, Courier's very old-fashioned, a wide-spaced font, too, very easy to read. Until I got the one from my dad, all I had was an Underwood from the 30's he'd picked up at a yard sale, this huge iron monstrosity that weighed a ton--I had to double-brace my little desk just to hold it. The prong lifted almost 2 full inches to make capitals and sounded like a backhoe. The keys depressed more than an inch and you really had to pound them to get them to work. The font was an old-fashioned version of TNR, some of the letters weren't aligned any more, and the 'e' was worn down so that it looked like a 'c'.

It was a terror, a dinosaur, noisy and rickety and it ate spools of tape almost as fast as I could put them in. God, I loved that machine.

My daughter was surprised the first time I described a typewriter to her.....made me feel O-L-D. lol

I just think it's so awfully strange that not one single person in THE WHOLE WIDE WORLD can attest to having seen Bush serving in Alabama. Not one person. In the whole wide world.

So weird.

Actually there were but the lefties called them liars and not credible. Doesn't matter anyway. There were some 250 that served with Kerry and you didn't believe them. You called the vets liars. Of course, being called a liar is certainly better than being called a baby killer.

I swear if Buddha came to you in a dream and told you it was true - you'd find a way to blame Rove. ;-)

Please show me an example of a person who has credibly vouched that they served with Bush in Alabama. Doonesbury offered $10,000 to anyone who could, and the money is still there.

As for vets who served with Kerry, how many "Swift Vets for Truth" have to be proven liars before you stop believing their cocaphoney stories?

And how many times do you need to be reminded that the Vietnam war was WRONG before you stop condemning John Kerry for protesting it upon his return home? He fought honorably, he protested honorably.

And if Buddha came to me in a dream and told me ANYTHING, I would be deeply concerned. ;o)

As for vets who served with Kerry, how many "Swift Vets for Truth" have to be proven liars before you stop believing their cocaphoney stories?

ALL of them.

Here is one of them Maria: http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2004-02-13-bush-military_x.htm

If a Swiftvet lies and it is proven that he lied; then he is a liar. I am not about to call all of them liars though. I mean - that is the equivalent of you calling me a liar because I'm a Republican simply because some Repubs have been proven to be liars or me calling you one because you are a Democrat because some Democrats are proven liars.

Get it?

Rose, that was back in Feb. And his claims were never substantiated by any proof!

Furthermore, there was this in the article you linked:

"The 187th's former commander, retired Brig. Gen. William Turnipseed, has said he doesn't remember Bush ever turning up on base, and more than a dozen members of the 800-person unit, including its commander, told The Associated Press this week they have no recollection of Bush."

Sounds more believable to me. How is it that this one guy claims to have seen him "all the time" but no one else there can recall seeing Bush even once??? Let's weigh the evidence shall we?

Turnipseed has been diagnosed with Alzheimer's. See, doesn't matter. A guy comes forward and you have tagged him a liar. You asked for ONE person that saw him. His eyes aren't proof? That is why people won't bother.

mikey,

would you like some whine with your crow

http://www.wral.com/politics/3720145/detail.html

I guess your next turn will be desperation and the cries of "see, fox news said it isn't authentic!"

in response to mikey's previous post:

Everyone is waiting for CBS News to finish their internal investigation so you'll have to be patient.

Posted by Mad Mikey at September 10, 2004 02:02 PM

yup, crickets yet again. they all ran away.

'Whine with my crow'? Are you trying to be funny?

Of course CBS is gonna say they're authentic - their entire news organizations reputation is at stake.

Of course, a real man (unlike Rather) would admit they screwed up.....

"Turnipseed has been diagnosed with Alzheimer's"

Hmmm. Well that explains it.

No, Rosemary, I wouldn't trust the eyewitness account of a person diagnosed with Alzheimer's whose story can't be corroborated by a single other person on earth. Call me crazy.

Turnipseed is the guy that said he doesn't remember Bush being there. The guy that was the eyewitness is the one you called a liar - he doesn't have any memory issues.

Whatever. You are as blind and closedminded as those of us you accuse to be. I guess it takes one to know one, huh.

"Of course, a real man (unlike Rather) would admit they screwed up.....

Posted by Mad Mikey at September 11, 2004 11:20 AM "

Hmm, just like Bush admitted he screwed up in Iraq?

Don't change the subject nunya.

And here is yet another thread that's causing it all to unravel....

Sorry about the confusion Rosemary.

I still think it's odd that it's only one person and his story can't be corroborated by any of the other people there. If I was on a jury and I was asked to rely on the story of one person, a story that couldn't be supported by any other testimony or documentation or evidence whatsoever, I'm sorry, I wouldn't put all my faith in that one person.

There are many people who were with John Kerry that have testified to his valor. Many. Not just one. So I think your comparison is unfair.

Well, you did ask for just one. The main problem is that the guy with Alzheimer's had been introduced to Bush on many occasions according to the witness but because he has the disease - he can't remember meeting him. Supposedly, Bush hung out in the office studying so he wouldn't have been running around on base.

What was bush studying? It apparently didn't work.

Flight manuals

"Supposedly, Bush hung out in the office studying so he wouldn't have been running around on base."

Of course he was. Working hard, serving his country, I'm sure.

Furthermore, I don't know how it's possible that you could be George H.W. Bush-war veteran, airforce extraordinaire, director of CIA's son, and go virtually unnoticed at an airforce base. I'm sorry, that just sounds like a major stretch to me.

why these debates of military service are even up, I don't know.

Bottom line is (and you cannot deny this Mikey)

Kerry went to Nam, Bush didn't.

You can debate al day long what Kerry did in Nam, but he went, it wasn't a cake walk, he put himself into deaths way.

And, Bush didn't. Period.

Kerry went to Nam, Bush didn't.

Yup, you're right. But this is relavant how....?

Oh, that "combat experience" necessity....

didn't seem to bother Dems like you back in '92 or '96 when Slick Willy was elected.

It didn't bother me than and it doesn't bother me now. I alwasy thought this whole entire "service record" debate was bullshit.

Let's see, it seemd like a big deal to you guys that Clinton didn't have the service expierence. Then, when the dems bring up Bush's lazy service, all of a sudden you are calling the dems whiners about it and demphaszing. Just like when Clinton was asked about smoking pot. Buig deal then. But Bush's alcoholism and cocaine addiction? no big deal.

So now that the dems are playing YOUR game, you don't like it. Boo fucking hoo, Mikey. You guys sling shit, expect shit to come back at you.

And the relvence is when comparing service records, it shows that Kerry had a fuck load more courage than little monkey pig Bush did. You talk abouit how courageous he is now - I ask how is he courageous at all? He isn't fighting any war. He is protected 24x7x365 by gaurds, planes, tanks armed to thr hilt. In my book, he is one of the biggest pussies in the world.

Your *cough* has been noted.

*YAWN*

BTW, was President Bush a cocaine addict? I haven't seen anything about that, but then again I haven't looked because I blow it off (no pun intended) as BS just like Bush skipping over 500+ people to get into the ANG.

The list for your commonplace schnook - like Nunya - to get in was long, but selectees for pilot training didn't have to contend with a list. (This nugget of info was straight out of the Texas ANG Operations Director on the TV this morning.)

yeah, funny how because YOU ignore the fcat that bush was arrested for cocaine possesion, then it must not have happened.
Uh, jerkweed, he has a record. Or is that a forgery too?

I couldn't possibly ignore something that I've never seen or looked for.

I really think that might be the problem Mikey. You can't handle the truth and you are a tad under-informed to begin with.

You can't handle the truth and you are under-informed.

Did you intend to have a Jack Nicholson inflection when you thought that?

Truth I can handle and being under-informed isn't a character flaw in my view of the world.

I'll take your word for it that he was busted for cocaine. Does that constitute a major flaw in him?

For every possible 'flaw' you find in a person, I'm sure I could find a corresponding one in your background.

To put it in a phrase you'd get: that was then, this is now.

I always chuckle when I see the little aspects of human nature that people like you & nunya go *PING!* about where President Bush is concerned.

I know the saying goes 'the devil is in the details' but it is funny as hell to see Dems approaching STROKE POINT and grasping at anything. It's like the bad guns unloading on Superman and then throwing the gun at him - a last desparate act.

Ya know, I went looking for anything on this and all I found was a book review that alleges Dubya did blow.

You got a source?

You obviously didn't look very hard Mikey. This has been something that has been touched on numerous times since Dubya ran for president in 2000.

All of Bush's criminal records are sealed and locked up in his father's library. You really underestimate the power of the Bush family to hide that which they do not want the public to see. So trusting.

And yes, I did take that line from Jack Nicholson. That was the point.

"I'll take your word for it that he was busted for cocaine. Does that constitute a major flaw in him?

For every possible 'flaw' you find in a person, I'm sure I could find a corresponding one in your background."

Yes, I do think that cocaine addiction constitutes a major flaw. And yes, you may be able to find a corresponding flaw in any person who might shell out criticism towards Bush, but I doubt you'll find that any of them are the President of the United States.

I never fail to be amazed at the low standards that people hold for their elected officials.

Furthermore, I am of the belief that Bush is an alcoholic and former drug addict who never received proper treatment for his problems. He became a born again Christian and pronounced his problems done. Any addiction expert will tell you that untreated alcoholism and drug abuse is a serious problem. Even when deeply repressed.

1% of all drug/alcohol addicts ever make a full recovery from their addiction. ANd even in thiose 1% it doesn't take much to get them off the bandwagon.

DO I think these people desrve a chance to be good folks and hold good jobs, lead good lives. Sure. Do I think ANY of them should be President of the US. Absolutley not. A position like that requires someone with a very level head, and not only is Bush not level headed, but he isn't a strong person. You can argue he has strong faith, but that doesn't make him a strong leader.

I'd say his ability to stand firm for the national defense of the United States affirms his leadership abilities.

That depends on your perception of what constitutes effective national defense. I think of good national defense as only attacking countries that pose an imminent threat to us, respecting our allies, protecting our borders (rather than cutting funding and claiming that you're doing everything you can to protect them when the evidence points to the contrary), and in the case of a terror attack, retaliating against those who committed the attack, not others who had nothing to do with it. In my eyes he has made us far less safe with his policies rather than more.

Be real too, Mikey. You know damn well there is not a sole person in government would would weaken our national defense. There is not one person who would not have attacked the Taliban after Sept. 11th. I mean please. Iraq is a failure, lets face it. It is s 21st century vietnam. These insurgants are just like those little bastards who dug intracite tunnles below the jungle and would rise to attack. These people know their own homes and as long as we are there, they will attack. We got the oil. We got Saddam, now lets get the hell out of there. That is all those bastards want. There will always be terrorust there regardless of whether we have a presence or not.
You want a permanent presence? Build a permanent base in Kuwait, Baharain, Qatar. After all those are puppet nations we own anyway. Place 100K troops there and throw a carrier or teo over there with a nuke sub in the gulf and keeo the finger on the trigger - any type of hostile movement, we send in some special forces, any government decides to get stupid, send the the tomahawks. But to sit in a country where the majority of the arabs hate us, whike pissing off the rest of the damn arab league because of it, will only enflame the bastards more.
WHy is this such a hard thing? Because the reality is, bushco are chickenhawks hellbent on mkaing war to further *cough*moneypowergreed*cough* "democracy"
Go ahead and deny, Mikey. Or you may even beleive in the bullshit they are selling, but thinking people know better.

Maria: I agree about the borders - there isn't enough being done about them and that concerns me. (My idea: dig a trench and fill it with gasoline).

Nunya: WTF? Actually, I can give you at least one person that would and has weaken our national defense: John F. Kerry.

Vietnam aside, Kerry's record in the Senate is apathetic at best, attrocious is more like it.

No snippy retort from the Nun-meister?

Well, at least the crickets are pleasant sounding.....

*cricket-cricket-cricket-cricket-cricket-cricket*